Hello,
I'm a homeowner and have little to no knowledge regarding this subject.
I have a townhouse in Ontario that was built in 2004. The furnace is original, along with all the piping, and is from 2004.
Enbridge came to change my gas meter and I was hit with a safety violation for not having my dryer vent 3 feet from my furnace intake. The code quoted on the sheet by Lakeside Contractors is code 8.14.
My dryer is not a combustion dryer. It is electric. There has been no work done to the furnace or dryer since 2004.
It's to my knowledge that this code is incorrect or does NOT apply since this code came into effect on December 31, 2012, but my furnace and all piping is original since 2004 and would have been to code back then. Is this true?
I hired an outside HVAC contractor who said the safety violation is silly. There are 63 houses in my townhouse complex and none of them have had to do this. I can see everyone's piping from the back of the house and I have checked. These are all cookie cutter houses and they have exactly the same layout as mine.
The condo board has ignored my emails and Enbridge won't budge or send a contractor out to verify.
Can someone please tell me... MUST I fix this piping? The pipes are about 1 foot apart.
I was quoted $500 to fix this issue and I really don't have that kind of money right now for something that seems mostly irrational.
How can I get around doing this?
Is my furnace grandfathered in?
Is 8.14 even the correct code for this "violation"?
Also, how would it be that I am the only one out of 63 units that must do this when every house is identical with the same build date?
There is no such thing as Clause 8.14. Clause 8.1.4 exists and refers to Clauses 8.2 and 8.3.
Part of Clause 8.3 is Clause 8.3.7. It applies but did not exist in 2004 so it cannot be enforced until the appliance is replaced.
In your case they could have enforced Clause 7.5.2.
Here is a post that might help,
https://www.hvactechgroup.com/hvacforum/index.php?topic=1844.msg5301#msg5301
Regardless it should be very easy to snorkel the furnace intake away from the dryer vent. The concern is with moisture so whether it's electric or gas is irrelevant.
The glue and venting can be purchased from Home Depot.
Admin,
Have you had any luck in the past with actually fighting the "grand fathering" premise? I typically haven't, as Enbridge, Lakeside & Utilities Kingston where I am located, take the stance as any code violation that has to do with safety is grounds for correction. Regardless of the code at the time of install.
It has been explained to me before that TSSA & the authority having jurisdiction will ultimately side with the idea of reducing risk of potential appliance failure or personal injury.
Case in point, I have a customer who had an RTU installed & INSPECTED by Union Gas when the building was constructed, the appliance was installed within 6 feet of the roof edge, and no fixed access to the roof was installed, as this was not in the code at time of installation. Even with "grand father" documentation of the code at time of install, my customer was made to install fixed access and safety barriers.
99.99% of the time I find its easier not to getting to a "friendly exchange or ideas or opinion" with inspectors, its easier just to correct the violation and move on.
I disagree with Home Depot selling S636, the glue and venting is available for purchase... but the chamfering tool isn't, which would make any installation of venting not as per S636 manufacturers instructions. We all have to have S636 certification, but yet it's sold at Home Depot to anyone. That I don't understand.
Given the original post, combustion air piping isn't a "gas vent" so it's not subject to the requirement of S636, and would likely never be an issue anyways. But still rant worthy lol
One example is an appliance installed with ABS venting cannot be forced to upgrade to 636 until the appliance is replaced, or until the venting becomes defective. Even though cracked venting is a major safety risk the latest Codes cannot be enforced.
In Ontario the owner of a non-detached dwelling can do any gas related work and Home Depot knows this ;D
According to CSA the code of the day prevails. A new gas fitter would only have the current code book. It supercedes the old.
From CSA
This is the sixteenth edition of CSA B149.1, Natural gas and propane installation code. It supersedes all previous editions published. The CSA B149 Series provides important guidance on how to do your job safely -- from handling and storage of natural gas and propane, to safe and effective installation of related appliances and equipment, and more. The 2020 edition is the latest for the B149.1, Natural gas and propane installation code.
There has never been any language in the code about grandfathering.
su·per·sede
verb
3rd person present: supersedes
take the place of (a person or thing previously in authority or use); supplant.
"the older models have now been superseded"
ADMIN,
The ABS venting example makes sense to me, but that is because there is a TSSA directive addressing this directly. Same with external B vent.
But if in 1990 for example, the clearance to combustibles from a single wall vent connector was 3 inches, and now the current requirement is 6". That wouldn't compute with anyone I don't think, the logic doesn't always work.
NoDIY
That has always been my understanding as well, I have emailed my TSSA rep for clarification on grandfathering. We all need to be on the same page, no grey area, the code is white pages with black print.
Likely only a lawyer could answer this question.
I have never heard of bringing things up to code simply because a Code book changed. The upgrades take place when the appliance is replaced, so that it adheres to the latest Codes. I believe the law would agree.
As far as I'm concerned an existing installation cannot be subjected to new codes that did not exist when the appliance was installed.
I am still at a loss with this.
As I said, it is $500 to fix this issue (I don't see how it's so costly...) and I really don't think I should have to fix this.
1) I don't personally see it as a safety concern
2) every other townhouse, including the ones attached to my unit, do not need to make this change
Also, what is the proper process for locking out a gas meter? Lakeside has simply just put a ziptie on my gas meter/line. Is that "up to code/safe"?
The ziptie also has play in it. I could still turn my gas on even with the ziptie in place.
What happens if I just do not fix this issue and run the gas, anyway? If the ziptie is still on, have I broken any laws?
Here's a thought:
What if I were to extend the outdoor intake pipe myself (snorkel up and away) and then call Enbridge and tell them my furnace has kicked on. Basically, play stupid and say "I thought my gas was shut off?"
I assume they would then send someone from Lakeside to check it out. Maybe when they show up to "lock out" my meter, they will see that my intake is indeed 3 feet away and they will reverse their own tag?
So they actually shut off your gas and gave you an immediate hazard for that? Make sure that when you snorkel the intake, it still follows the furnace manufacturers requirement for distance from the exhaust pipe. I'd say go for it.
On a side note, They always like to hand out tags when they change meters. It's like the more tags they hand out, the more likely they are to move up in rank.
My house was built when both Clauses 7.5.2 and 8.3.7 existed yet the dryer vent was installed within 3 feet of the furnace intake and passed inspection. It's been about 11 years now and I will fix it when I finally get around to replacing the water heater. I have never had an issue and the furnace's heat exchanger is still in great condition.
Did the inspector issue the warning tag without entering the house? One option, if your basement is unfinished, is to calculate the volume of air. It's possible you don't even require the intake. If the inspector never entered the house you can call the company and explain the intake is not connected to the furnace, therefore it is not an intake and the warning tag is invalid. Your appliance can be installed as non-direct vent if there is enough volume of air. Would there by chance be a secondary fresh air intake duct going from outside to the water heater? It could serve both furnace and water heater if so. Just make sure it's installed within 12 inches above the burner of the larger appliance.
Technically you are not allowed to fix it yourself because you do not live in a detached dwelling.
But if you were able to correct the problem, and they were coming back to turn the gas off, likely they would see there is no code infraction and leave. They should not have issued an immediate hazard warning tag. I suspect it was non-immediate but the time expired so they came back and shut off your gas.
You could also clear the warning tag yourself and virtually write down any company name and certificate number. This info should be listed on the pressure test tag on the appliance. Enbridge does not usually verify a warning tag has been cleared with the company that is listed as doing so.
This has been going on since April.
Admittedly, this is my first time dealing with something like this. When I was handed the infraction, I really didn't understand how serious the companies would take this. Since I only use my gas for my furnace (water heater is electric), I always shut off my gas in the spring. So, when I was handed the infraction, I just called and cancelled my gas service.
My hope was that the problem would go away when I wanted to reconnect it in the fall. Maybe it would fall off, maybe I would get an agent that wouldn't check the notes, etc.
I was wrong, and that was my fault. So, yes, the time expired to complete the job and apparently they ziptie locked my gas meter in June and did not tell me.
The tech from Lakeside that changed the meter did enter the house in April. Is that something I would have been allowed to refuse?
Also, I used to have a gas water heater so I do have another intake pipe that is no longer being used. The problem remains though - it is not 3 feet away, so it doesn't solve any of the problems.
My basement is also finished.
Quote from: Deetor on November 05, 2024, 06:38:47 AMYou could also clear the warning tag yourself and virtually write down any company name and certificate number. This info should be listed on the pressure test tag on the appliance. Enbridge does not usually verify a warning tag has been cleared with the company that is listed as doing so.
I did think about this, but that definitely sounds very illegal if caught.
I don't know what the repercussions of that would be, but I don't think they would be good. It's not something I could play stupid about and would for sure be guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
I don't want to spend the $500, but creating false documents is too risky for my blood.
Here is the setup.
You can see that the pipe with rag inside it is from my old gas water heater. I ended up going electric because the black PVC is no longer up to code and my basement is finished.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2BYZzcF/20241105-153902.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHwV4Q8x/20241105-153946.jpg)
It that a Lennox furnace? If so what is the model number?
Is your furnace also vented in ABS? I would switch the intake and exhaust at the furnace so that the exhaust outside becomes the intake. Then I would cut your old water heater vent flush to the wall and elbow the furnace intake over the hose bib 3' from the dryer vent.
It is permissible to alter existing ABS vent system terminations with 636 PVC or CPVC. You could have also continued using ABS if you paid for a variance. See Director's Advisory FS-101-07.
https://hvactechgroup.com/files/order/fs10107r1.pdf
Another option is you can buy a product like this and snorkel the dryer vent,
https://eccomfg.com/product-category/galvanized-duct-pipe-fittings-and-elbows/fittings/fresh-air-snorkels/
Just make sure to remove any screens when it's being used on a dryer vent. That should bring the height of your dryer vent up and hopefully 3' away from the intake.
Quote from: NoDIY on November 04, 2024, 02:53:45 PMAccording to CSA the code of the day prevails. A new gas fitter would only have the current code book. It supercedes the old.
From CSA
This is the sixteenth edition of CSA B149.1, Natural gas and propane installation code. It supersedes all previous editions published. The CSA B149 Series provides important guidance on how to do your job safely -- from handling and storage of natural gas and propane, to safe and effective installation of related appliances and equipment, and more. The 2020 edition is the latest for the B149.1, Natural gas and propane installation code.
There has never been any language in the code about grandfathering.
su·per·sede
verb
3rd person present: supersedes
take the place of (a person or thing previously in authority or use); supplant.
"the older models have now been superseded"
I do not believe the CSA has authority to dictate that their new codes apply to older installations. Director's Advisory FS-210–14 is a good example of the TSSA not applying new codes to older installations.
https://hvactechgroup.com/article.php/20140407165712609
Imagine if before all the bonding requirement confusion was sorted out we could just issue warning tags on every appliance that was installed before the new bonding requirements existed. This was only enforced when the appliance was replaced. This has always been the way.
And for a new fitter to consider themselves competent they would have to be knowledgable of the previous codes.
Yes, it is a Lennox furnace. I believe everything is done in ABS piping as it is all black, but I would have to double check to make 100% sure it is ABS.
Please see my tag issuance below for the furnace model number: GSIMP045
(https://i.postimg.cc/X75kjK3H/20241105-162126.jpg)
I wrote the TSSA, this was there stance on code violations found in the field. 4th paragraph details that "grandfathering" is not reality. If you touch the appliance, repair it, you are responsible for bringing it up to current code.
As a Licensed TSSA Technician and Registered Contractor its your requirement to follow along with Ontario Regulation, adopted codes and manufacture certified instructions.
Any non compliance identified shall be red tagged until it can be repaired or replaced. This protects the technician and the contractor.
If non compliance is identified while onsite and a technician leaves the site without making the fuel fired equipment/ components in a safe condition they have not completed their due diligence.
In regards to the insufficient roof access: if any gas equipment was installed, repaired or alterations that took place on the roof after the adopted code it now requires to meet that code.
4.14.5
An appliance shall not be installed on a roof
a) exceeding 13 ft (4 m) in height from grade to roof elevation unless fixed access to the roof is
provided; and
b) exceeding 26 ft (8 m) in height from grade to roof elevation unless permanent fixed access to the
roof by means of either a stairway or a stairway leading to a ladder not exceeding 13 ft (4 m) in
height is provided
QuoteYes, it is a Lennox furnace. I believe everything is done in ABS piping as it is all black, but I would have to double check to make 100% sure it is ABS.
Please see my tag issuance below for the furnace model number: GSIMP045
The Lennox G51MP manual (https://hvactechgroup.com/files/g51mp.pdf) has wordage that makes it difficult to modify the termination the way I described. We might need to move onto Plan B.
QuoteClause 8.2.1 An outdoor air supply sized in accordance with Clause 8.2.2 shall be provided for an enclosure or a structure in which an appliance is installed when the enclosure or structure
a) has windows and doors of either close-fitting or sealed construction, and the exterior walls are covered by a continuous, sealed vapour barrier and gypsum wallboard (drywall) or plywood or a similar material having sealed joints; or
b) has an equivalent leakage area of 78 in2 (0.05 m2) or less at a differential pressure of 0.00145 psig (10 Pa) as determined by a recognized Canadian fan depressurization test procedure.
I would imagine your home complies with Clause 8.2.1 so we can follow Table 8.2. You mentioned replacing your gas water heater with electric, so I will assume you only have 1 gas appliance in the mechanical room, and it's a 45,000 BTU furnace. You only need a 2" air supply. The easiest thing to do is snorkel the abandoned water heater vent 3' away from the dryer vent. Then turn your furnace into non direct vent. Cut the intake at the furnace and install an elbow and debris screen, as per Page 22 of the manual. Then extend the ABS vent over to the furnace and terminate it above the intake.
Then I would escalate things with Enbridge. Explain the Clause the Lakeside inspector used, Clause 8.14, does not exist. And that Clause 8.1.4 refers to Clause 8.3.7 which did not exist when your appliance was installed. They should realize that mistakes were made and send someone over at no charge to reactivate your gas meter.
Quote from: InfinitudeMECH on November 05, 2024, 05:37:04 PMI wrote the TSSA, this was there stance on code violations found in the field. 4th paragraph details that "grandfathering" is not reality. If you touch the appliance, repair it, you are responsible for bringing it up to current code.
As a Licensed TSSA Technician and Registered Contractor its your requirement to follow along with Ontario Regulation, adopted codes and manufacture certified instructions.
Any non compliance identified shall be red tagged until it can be repaired or replaced. This protects the technician and the contractor.
If non compliance is identified while onsite and a technician leaves the site without making the fuel fired equipment/ components in a safe condition they have not completed their due diligence.
"Repaired or replaced" suggests something is defective.
repaired, replaced or any alterations... Example, repair/ replace / alter an ignitor on furnace, observe that a drier vent/moisture exhaust duct is within 3 feet of the combustion air inlet of that appliance. Correct the issue to bring the installation to current code, if the customer disagrees, red tag for legal purposes to show you have identified the code infraction, submit the tag the fuel distributor to helps enforce the code as a result.
we all have to be smarter technicians in the field, liability is the name of the game in the world, As my gas instructor conveyed to me 20 years ago, do your due diligence and understand that the moment you walk into someones home, or commercial site, you are responsible for the gas downstream of the meter and to the point where the flue leaves the building.
Yes but in the OP's example nothing was repaired, replaced or altered.
The gas company was doing work on their own equipment and should not enforce a Code that did not exist when the appliance was installed.
I do agree if certain work is done to the appliance it may be argued that all parts of the installation be brought up to Code.
By the way the zip tie is just to show it's been shut off. The contractor that makes the repair and clears the tag can reactivate the meter. There was probably a white card zip tied stating this. Had someone been home they would have disconnected and capped the appliance with the A tag.
Enbridge customer service is horrible and even getting to speak with a manager is impossible.
Can someone please tell me what type of material my furnace intake is made of?
Can I not just extend the pipe that is already there towards the right by 3ft?
Why can it not be that simple to add onto that existing pipe?
All I want to do is go to a home improvement store, buy some pipe/glue and extend the intake pipe that is already there. What is the issue with this?
By the way, I appreciate everyone's posts and guidance so far. Thank you.
QuoteEnbridge customer service is horrible and even getting to speak with a manager is impossible.
Can someone please tell me what type of material my furnace intake is made of?
Can I not just extend the pipe that is already there towards the right by 3ft?
Why can it not be that simple to add onto that existing pipe?
All I want to do is go to a home improvement store, buy some pipe/glue and extend the intake pipe that is already there. What is the issue with this?
Enbridge customer is horrible because it doesn't need to be any better, they are a fuel distributor, you don't have any alternative. Their reps don't have any an interest with talking with a home owner who is disputing a code, they are the authority having jurisdiction and may interpret the code how they wish. If you wish to challenge them, contact the TSSA.
your furnace vent termination looks like PVC, but ABS was the primary material for venting back in 2004.
the problem with just extending your pipe to the right, is that the vent termination of the furnace outside has to match the manufacturer's installation instructions. All appliances must be installed as manufacturers instructions, while abiding by the gas code, whichever more stringent.
This entire issue for you can go away with the $500 dollar quote you received, you are looking at the $500 dollars in comparison to what you think it will take to remedy this issue, but in that cost is a technician to pickup required materials, travel to your home, alter your venting arrangement to meet current code, then attest that they have performed this work to Enbridge and clear your red tag.
There are 63 other units that may have this same potential infraction, their time will come when Lakeside or Enbridge comes to change their meters. This is how we move forward with safety, if you want to dispute this, contact the TSSA and have their inspector come and visit your home.
https://www.tssa.org/sites/default/files/2024-10/Natural%20Gas%20%26%20Hydrogen%20Fee%20Schedule_v1.8.pdf
attached is the link for cost for their inspection services,